20 games in: The State of Jazz Nation

TheMagnus wrote:

is a fact...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=milescj01&y1=2009&p2=haywago01&y2=2013

Surprisingly small difference in numbers per 36. If any. I'd say that it is inside staterror. And you have to believe me in stat domain.

TroutBum wrote:

TheMagnus wrote:

TheMagnus wrote:

Since the Trout disdains per-minute numbers so much, lets go back to per-game numbers, and see if you can name all of the players under the age of 23 right now in the NBA averaging over 8 points, 7 rebounds, and 1.5 blocks PER GAME?

I'll wait...

Silence from the Trout...anybody else want to take a crack at it?

Oh, my bad. I didn't think there was any way that you were being serious. You actually think that dropping your "Per x-minute" stat in favor of, "OMG, LOOK AT HIS POTENTIAL!! HE'S ONLY 23!!11 LOL!" is somehow a better way of trying to prove a point that was absolute garbage from the get-go? Ya, good call. I can't believe nobody took the time to answer your question.

He's only 21, but I guess that's what I like about you, your attention to detail...that and the way you use sarcasm to try mask your ignorance, I think it's cute.

The answer to the question is Anthony Davis, Serge Ibaka, and Derrick Favors.

His actual performance makes him valuable, and his "potential" makes him worth waiting for.

vryadli wrote:

TheMagnus wrote:

is a fact...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=milescj01&y1=2009&p2=haywago01&y2=2013

Surprisingly small difference in numbers per 36. If any. I'd say that it is inside staterror. And you have to believe me in stat domain.

Some of the numbers are, others are not. Specifically, the defensive numbers are worth noting.

Aside from that, CJ has followed the unusual pattern of peaking at 21 and consistently regressing every year since. I was a cj supporter, I thought he was a good value at under 4 mil a year when they signed him, but his failure to improve himself changed that. Hayward may do the same, or he might not, but in my opinion keeping effective young players at a reasonable price is never a mistake.

Romoholic wrote:

I thought Mo was going to be more of a difference maker than he is. I think the main problem for their struggles is the PG play.

MtJazz wrote:

And honestly, Mo = Devin in my mind, not the upgrade I thought we were getting.

I don't know; I haven't given up on Mo. I was thinking that I was possibly visually observing some slow improvement from Mo regarding his decision making, and then yesterday I saw these tweets on the Trib website from one of the SL Trib sports reporters, Bill Oram ( I assume he is a sports reporter) : "It's getting tough for detractors to fault Mo Williams: 4-of-7 from the field, 11 points, 10 assists, 2 turnovers. Only 7 attempts." That was the Toronto game. And then later, this same Bill Oram guy tweeted this: "The only player who has done over course of season what Mo Williams has done last five games is Chris Paul. Book it." I am not sure what the heck Oram is "booking", but it sounded good anyway! LOL.

Twitter feed
https://twitter.com/tribjazz

TheMagnus wrote:

TroutBum wrote:

TheMagnus wrote:

TheMagnus wrote:

Since the Trout disdains per-minute numbers so much, lets go back to per-game numbers, and see if you can name all of the players under the age of 23 right now in the NBA averaging over 8 points, 7 rebounds, and 1.5 blocks PER GAME?

I'll wait...

Silence from the Trout...anybody else want to take a crack at it?

Oh, my bad. I didn't think there was any way that you were being serious. You actually think that dropping your "Per x-minute" stat in favor of, "OMG, LOOK AT HIS POTENTIAL!! HE'S ONLY 23!!11 LOL!" is somehow a better way of trying to prove a point that was absolute garbage from the get-go? Ya, good call. I can't believe nobody took the time to answer your question.

He's only 21, but I guess that's what I like about you, your attention to detail...that and the way you use sarcasm to try mask your ignorance, I think it's cute.

The answer to the question is Anthony Davis, Serge Ibaka, and Derrick Favors.

His actual performance makes him valuable, and his "potential" makes him worth waiting for.

I mask nothing, especially my ignorance. The fact is, I know very little about NBA basketball and only a little bit more about the Jazz. That's what makes my amazing contributions to this, and other sites all the more incredible.

Seriously. Incredible.

TroutBum wrote:

TheMagnus wrote:

TroutBum wrote:

TheMagnus wrote:

TheMagnus wrote:

Since the Trout disdains per-minute numbers so much, lets go back to per-game numbers, and see if you can name all of the players under the age of 23 right now in the NBA averaging over 8 points, 7 rebounds, and 1.5 blocks PER GAME?

I'll wait...

Silence from the Trout...anybody else want to take a crack at it?

Oh, my bad. I didn't think there was any way that you were being serious. You actually think that dropping your "Per x-minute" stat in favor of, "OMG, LOOK AT HIS POTENTIAL!! HE'S ONLY 23!!11 LOL!" is somehow a better way of trying to prove a point that was absolute garbage from the get-go? Ya, good call. I can't believe nobody took the time to answer your question.

He's only 21, but I guess that's what I like about you, your attention to detail...that and the way you use sarcasm to try mask your ignorance, I think it's cute.

The answer to the question is Anthony Davis, Serge Ibaka, and Derrick Favors.

His actual performance makes him valuable, and his "potential" makes him worth waiting for.

I mask nothing, especially my ignorance. The fact is, I know very little about NBA basketball and only a little bit more about the Jazz. That's what makes my amazing contributions to this, and other sites all the more incredible.

Seriously. Incredible.

I wondered how long it would take for a Lakers troll to show up. Was it hard to hunt and peck and find your ol' Jazz buddies? Welcome back. I expect enlightened dialogue on the Lakers game tonight

TroutBum wrote:

I mask nothing, especially my ignorance. The fact is, I know very little about NBA basketball and only a little bit more about the Jazz. That's what makes my amazing contributions to this, and other sites all the more incredible.

Seriously. Incredible.

Indeed. You are, truly, a treasure.

TheMagnus wrote:

TroutBum wrote:

I mask nothing, especially my ignorance. The fact is, I know very little about NBA basketball and only a little bit more about the Jazz. That's what makes my amazing contributions to this, and other sites all the more incredible.

Seriously. Incredible.

Indeed. You are, truly, a treasure.

Not in my book. Any guy named Trout Bum, not living in the Treasure State of Montana, has zero street, (er, river), trout cred. We Montanan's do not suffer trout posers well at all. I mean seriously, I"ll match your LA River cement canal and raise you with my backyard irrigation ditch.

MTJazz wrote:

TheMagnus wrote:

TroutBum wrote:

I mask nothing, especially my ignorance. The fact is, I know very little about NBA basketball and only a little bit more about the Jazz. That's what makes my amazing contributions to this, and other sites all the more incredible.

Seriously. Incredible.

Indeed. You are, truly, a treasure.

Not in my book. Any guy named Trout Bum, not living in the Treasure State of Montana, has zero street, (er, river), trout cred. We Montanan's do not suffer trout posers well at all. I mean seriously, I"ll match your LA River cement canal and raise you with my backyard irrigation ditch.

While I take great exception even being mentioned in the same breath as "Laker Fan", I simply can't stand back and allow this blaspheme to continue. If catching fish were cervical cancer, I'd get more cooter than a fackin' toilet seat. Just this year I cracked 20+ species in Utah caught on the fly. While I appreciate you Big Sky folken, and the rivers/fish that you produce, I'm willing to bet there are pound for pound more and better anglers here in Utah. Being able to catch trout is one thing, but being able to catch everything else, including trout, is another.

I demand intellectual honesty!!

Just wanted to throw in a little note here on the main topic of the state of Jazz nation.

There are really three teams that I think are going to have the biggest impact on where the Jazz finnish this season and what playoff spot they get, Denver, Minnesota, and Golden State.

I think Golden State is probalby not as good as their current record, but they are good, surprisingly good, and as long as Curry stays healthy they will continue to be.

Minnesota and Denver are both playing .500 basketball right now, but I feel like both of them are sleeping giants.

Denver's schedule has been hands down the toughest in the NBA to this point, and will continue to be through the end of the year. Not only is their strength of schedule one of the highest in the league (.531) but they play an astonishing 15 of their first 21 games on the road. Much like the Jazz, they finish the year out with more brutality, and then hit a soft patch in January. So, again much like the Jazz, if they can finnish the year out aound .500 and stay healthy, look for them to rocket up the standings in January when they play 12 of 15 games at home.

Minnesota has a much more balanced schedule, but they have been battling all kinds of injuries. Rubio is close to comming back, Love is at full strength, AK is back I think we will see them making slow and steady progress in the standings as long as they can stay healthy.

So what that all means for the Jazz is that the playoff race in the west is shaping up to be a real dog fight. There are clearly 4 teams that appear to be on a different level than the rest (Clippers, Spurs, Grizzlies, Thunder), and I'd bet good money that barring a catastrophic injury to a star those 4 teams will be the top 4 seeds, even then I'd say they are locks to make the playoffs. After that there are 7 teams that I think have a legit shot at the last 4 playoff spots.

I tell you what, this kind of feels like it will be similar to it was a few years ago in the west, when it took 50 wins to get into the playoffs. Should be a lot of fun.

Yea, I can't say I disagree with anything about your post there Mag.

Agree that Denver is probably going to figure it out, and be a much better second half team. I also think that it will coincide with Utah finally ironing out their chemistry and solidifying the rotations etc. And at that point, I think Utah is the better team, offensively and defensively. Jazz added 3 guys that play a ton of minutes this year, and the chemistry will take a bit. But we're watching it come together now. Assuming Corbin doesn't start sitting guys like DC, and gets a better feel of when to play Foye, this team will also be a really good second half team.

Foye is the one guy I think about most often. He obviously is one of the deep threats we've sorely needed. But man, his defense is atrocious. I love that he can stretch the floor, but if there is an opposite 2 that needs to be guarded, I wanna see Gordo on him, and will try to score other ways.

I think even if Curry stays healthy, GS will start to fade. More likely, Curry will get hurt and that will solidify their fall. So after the first 4, that leaves Utah, Minnesota, Denver, Lakers and Dallas. Sadly, I think the Lakers will probably reel off like 10 in a row at some point, when Kobe does that "fine, I'll stop shooting then and you guys do it!" and they start winning, after his pouting backfires. So thats 5 teams, and the last 3 spots to Utah, Minn, Denver. As it is, I think thats probably going to be the order, with Utah at 6. Also, with that being the playoff outlook, I think this team stays as it is, no trades.

Mutangclan wrote:

I think even if Curry stays healthy, GS will start to fade. More likely, Curry will get hurt and that will solidify their fall. So after the first 4, that leaves Utah, Minnesota, Denver, Lakers and Dallas. Sadly, I think the Lakers will probably reel off like 10 in a row at some point, when Kobe does that "fine, I'll stop shooting then and you guys do it!" and they start winning, after his pouting backfires. So thats 5 teams, and the last 3 spots to Utah, Minn, Denver. As it is, I think thats probably going to be the order, with Utah at 6. Also, with that being the playoff outlook, I think this team stays as it is, no trades.

Solid points.

I think you may be right about GS, but I don't think they slip too far, I think they are a 40+ win team.

The good news there is that the Jazz will almost certainly be getting that draft pick this year. The bad news is that the last time the Jazz had two mid first round picks they came away with Kris Humphries and Kirk Snyder.

TheMagnus wrote:

Mutangclan wrote:

I think even if Curry stays healthy, GS will start to fade. More likely, Curry will get hurt and that will solidify their fall. So after the first 4, that leaves Utah, Minnesota, Denver, Lakers and Dallas. Sadly, I think the Lakers will probably reel off like 10 in a row at some point, when Kobe does that "fine, I'll stop shooting then and you guys do it!" and they start winning, after his pouting backfires. So thats 5 teams, and the last 3 spots to Utah, Minn, Denver. As it is, I think thats probably going to be the order, with Utah at 6. Also, with that being the playoff outlook, I think this team stays as it is, no trades.

Solid points.

I think you may be right about GS, but I don't think they slip too far, I think they are a 40+ win team.

The good news there is that the Jazz will almost certainly be getting that draft pick this year. The bad news is that the last time the Jazz had two mid first round picks they came away with Kris Humphries and Kirk Snyder.

Hah, Hamburgler Kirk.....

Well it depends. I mean, Dallas is there too, and they haven't been doing too shabby. But no way Fisher leads them to the playoffs. On the other hand, when Dirkulous comes back, Id imagine his jumpshooting fits right in. They could make it sticky....

I think GS falls because they are depending on a rookie, Barnes, who is already fading, for big minutes. Their bench is bad, and just wont be able to compete. Never believed in Dallas, but Mayo has been better than I even thought when I drafted him. They could make a move.....hmmm. But I dont think it affects Utah either way. Dallas/Denver for the last spot.

TheMagnus wrote:

Mutangclan wrote:

I think even if Curry stays healthy, GS will start to fade. More likely, Curry will get hurt and that will solidify their fall. So after the first 4, that leaves Utah, Minnesota, Denver, Lakers and Dallas. Sadly, I think the Lakers will probably reel off like 10 in a row at some point, when Kobe does that "fine, I'll stop shooting then and you guys do it!" and they start winning, after his pouting backfires. So thats 5 teams, and the last 3 spots to Utah, Minn, Denver. As it is, I think thats probably going to be the order, with Utah at 6. Also, with that being the playoff outlook, I think this team stays as it is, no trades.

Solid points.

I think you may be right about GS, but I don't think they slip too far, I think they are a 40+ win team.

The good news there is that the Jazz will almost certainly be getting that draft pick this year. The bad news is that the last time the Jazz had two mid first round picks they came away with Kris Humphries and Kirk Snyder.

Something to remember about GS is that they are still going to get Bogut back at some point, which should only make them stronger. Not sure that they will be able to stay on their current pace, even with him, but it's something to think about.

TheMagnus wrote:

That's just crazy talk, Hayward is better than Miles was at this point in his career in almost every way, and that's not just grass-is-greener homerism, that is a fact...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=milescj01&y1=2009&p2=haywago01&y2=2013

Living inside a box score built house of cards? Cute son but out here in the real world we watch games.

Miles was rarely set up for wide open shots and we ran few sets for him. Hayward gets every opportunity he is ready to take and is the worst wide open shooter the Jazz have played significant minutes in probably a decade, if not more. Miles ability to make something out of broken plays made him the far superior player at the respective stage in his career.

Professo_Sloan wrote:

TheMagnus wrote:

That's just crazy talk, Hayward is better than Miles was at this point in his career in almost every way, and that's not just grass-is-greener homerism, that is a fact...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=milescj01&y1=2009&p2=haywago01&y2=2013

Living inside a box score built house of cards? Cute son but out here in the real world we watch games.

Miles was rarely set up for wide open shots and we ran few sets for him. Hayward gets every opportunity he is ready to take and is the worst wide open shooter the Jazz have played significant minutes in probably a decade, if not more. Miles ability to make something out of broken plays made him the far superior player at the respective stage in his career.

You're high.

Miles was basically begged to take the opportunity as a starter and run with it. Not only was he one of the dumbest players I have ever seen play, he was nowhere near as good as Gordo on defense, rebounding or passing the ball.

Romoholic wrote:

You're high.

Miles was basically begged to take the opportunity as a starter and run with it. Not only was he one of the dumbest players I have ever seen play, he was nowhere near as good as Gordo on defense, rebounding or passing the ball.

You're right. Miles never saw a shot he did not like and passed almost as little as this Burks fellow. Gordon is excellent at jumping in the air near the bounds line and passing the ball to the other team.

Defense and Gordon should be mentioned in the same breath as much as Kirilenko and health.

Professo_Sloan wrote:

TheMagnus wrote:

That's just crazy talk, Hayward is better than Miles was at this point in his career in almost every way, and that's not just grass-is-greener homerism, that is a fact...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=milescj01&y1=2009&p2=haywago01&y2=2013

Living inside a box score built house of cards? Cute son but out here in the real world we watch games.

Miles was rarely set up for wide open shots and we ran few sets for him. Hayward gets every opportunity he is ready to take and is the worst wide open shooter the Jazz have played significant minutes in probably a decade, if not more. Miles ability to make something out of broken plays made him the far superior player at the respective stage in his career.

HA!!!

I think your memory is failing you old man, and your eyes, because everything you just said is crap.

I may as well argue with the wind here, so I'll just let you go on believing what you think you see, but if you are going to keep trying to talk about the games you really should get those cataracts looked at.

Professo_Sloan wrote:

Living inside a box score built house of cards? Cute son but out here in the real world we watch games.

Miles was rarely set up for wide open shots and we ran few sets for him. Hayward gets every opportunity he is ready to take and is the worst wide open shooter the Jazz have played significant minutes in probably a decade, if not more. Miles ability to make something out of broken plays made him the far superior player at the respective stage in his career.

Who is this talking about CJ Miles and ANYONE in the same breath?? You just arguing just to argue?? Weird.......CJ Miles, hands down was the worst player on this team since I became a fan in 1986. He got more opportunities to show that he actually could help the team, and consistently didn't. His only skill, ONLY, was every once in awhile he would get hot outside. Other than that, he got lost more on defense than anyone ever has. He couldn't figure out why they called fouls on him, never saw an open man, couldn't at 6'7 couldn't rebound to save his life and consistently for his entire tenure in Utah, was inconsistent......except for his constant bordering on "fair" ability. On top of that, he worsened it all by being cocky and arrogant, acting as if everyone was keeping him down. Which is why in Cleveland now, Byron Scott also isn't playing him.

Hayward on the other hand by year two showed everything else needed in a basketball player, that CJ never could figure out: rebounding, defense, looking for the open player, taking a good shot vs bad, and most apparent when compared to CJ, he didn't lose his man. In a short 3 years, Hayward as far surpassed CJ's, what, 7 years in Utah. He is 3x the player already, and will only get better.
I said it for years that CJ should go. Just as strongly, Hayward should, and will stay.

My thoughts

Kanter, Foye and DC even better than I hoped.
Watson/Tinsley still good for 12 minutes a game and insurance.
Hayward needs to even out, be patient the kid will be just fine.
Mo' and Marvin... doing a good sufficient job for transitional players.
Jeremy might be the best twelfth man on any roster, he will continue to get better and if not, so what, he's a twelfth man.
Favors looks good but will look better when/if a trade comes down involving one of our bigs.
Millsap-Big Al. Both good but together won't be able to get this team to the next level.

The Jazz need two more elite players to be a contender over the next couple of years, they need to wait and not settle for a trade for the sake of a trade.
I figure 6th place in the west, have tough series with Memphis or Clippers.

TheMagnus wrote:

Professo_Sloan wrote:

TheMagnus wrote:

That's just crazy talk, Hayward is better than Miles was at this point in his career in almost every way, and that's not just grass-is-greener homerism, that is a fact...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=milescj01&y1=2009&p2=haywago01&y2=2013

Living inside a box score built house of cards? Cute son but out here in the real world we watch games.

Miles was rarely set up for wide open shots and we ran few sets for him. Hayward gets every opportunity he is ready to take and is the worst wide open shooter the Jazz have played significant minutes in probably a decade, if not more. Miles ability to make something out of broken plays made him the far superior player at the respective stage in his career.

HA!!!

I think your memory is failing you old man, and your eyes, because everything you just said is crap.

I may as well argue with the wind here, so I'll just let you go on believing what you think you see, but if you are going to keep trying to talk about the games you really should get those cataracts looked at.

HA!!!!

My incontinence fashions better memory than your fanboyish ways.

I think your typical fangoggles have fogged your vision son. Memory is often what we make it to be. Keep your love affair with Hayward intact and you'll surely be satisfied for a few more nights, but not many if you're brain is half healthy.

Hayward must go for team health.

Professo_Sloan wrote:

TheMagnus wrote:

Professo_Sloan wrote:

TheMagnus wrote:

That's just crazy talk, Hayward is better than Miles was at this point in his career in almost every way, and that's not just grass-is-greener homerism, that is a fact...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=milescj01&y1=2009&p2=haywago01&y2=2013

Living inside a box score built house of cards? Cute son but out here in the real world we watch games.

Miles was rarely set up for wide open shots and we ran few sets for him. Hayward gets every opportunity he is ready to take and is the worst wide open shooter the Jazz have played significant minutes in probably a decade, if not more. Miles ability to make something out of broken plays made him the far superior player at the respective stage in his career.

HA!!!

I think your memory is failing you old man, and your eyes, because everything you just said is crap.

I may as well argue with the wind here, so I'll just let you go on believing what you think you see, but if you are going to keep trying to talk about the games you really should get those cataracts looked at.

HA!!!!

My incontinence fashions better memory than your fanboyish ways.

I think your typical fangoggles have fogged your vision son. Memory is often what we make it to be. Keep your love affair with Hayward intact and you'll surely be satisfied for a few more nights, but not many if you're brain is half healthy.

Hayward must go for team health.

Fanboyish? Somebody is using some pretty advanced hipster lingo for an "old man"...

Responding to this Professo_Sloan troll is much more tedious than responding to Calgary. I can't imagine why you are doing it. Must be a boring Monday evening, Mr. Magnus.

thejazzkickazz wrote:

Responding to this Professo_Sloan troll is much more tedious than responding to Calgary. I can't imagine why you are doing it. Must be a boring Monday evening, Mr. Magnus.

Sometimes it's fun to play with the trolls. I find probing around the recesses of their various psyches and watching their facades crumble very fascinating, I guess that's probably just me though. The difference between the Professo and the Calgary is that Calgary doesn't have a facade, that's actually who he is.

Now that Hayward has shown a real niche in the second unit and with Tinsley especially, I like Marv still starting. But I'd like to see DC start along side him, and bring Foye off with Hayward and Fav. Seems thats a much better fit and balance. And how absolutely terrible Foyes defense is, we can put him in the game and ride him if he's on, sit him if he's not. With Marv starting and shooting, having DC in there for his D and hustle is a great start with the 1st unit. I much prefer starting a game off with hustle and tenacious D, verses sending someone in to hopefully bring that once it's already needed. If you start off that way, it tends to stick. Last DC was one of the biggest reasons this team pushed for the playoffs, then Corbin STUPIDLY thought Josh Howard was the answer (epic fail). With DC also hitting the 3, we aren't necessarily loses that option by starting him over Foye.