Free Kanter

Out of all the "young guns" on the Jazz roster I hereby declare my frustration that Enes is not getting the game exposure he both deserves and needs. While I will pull out no stats, my observation of his play is that he has a higher ceiling than any of them. Yep, higher than Favors, (who will have a good but not great career). Yep, higher than Gordon, who will have a better career than Favors based on his multidimensional play and slow but sure maturation. Kanter's learning curve is going to be shorter, he has a better game feel than Favors and doesn't suffer from confidence issues like Gordon to slow his progress becaues for some reason he doesn't know he should be scared by the bright lights.

As for Burks? Who knows. He is the mystery man, but obviously, on this team we will never know because they are not willing to find out.

Free Enes. Now.

I kind of half agree with you, and half not.

I mean, I definitely see where you are coming from, with Mo's injury you have written off your hopes for this season and are pinning your hopes on the future, so from that perspective what you are saying makes sense...sort of.

I love what I am seeing from both Kanter and Favors right now, love it. They are both playing with confidence and energy and (most importantly) attitude. Kanter looks like he is getting back to being Big Turkey and enjoying the game.

Here's the thing about Kanter though, dude has a big old type A personality with natural confidence (as you said), and I actually think what is happening now is the best thing for him. The guys that are playing in front of him are better than he is right now, that is a fact, and I think the worst thing you can do for a guy like Kanter is hand him something just because you (or he) thinks he should be entitled to it. Make him work for it it, make him struggle, make him learn how to do his best in a limited role before you hand him the reins and let him take over. I don't think the situation this year stunts his growth at all, if anything having guys like Jefferson and Millsap (especially Jefferson) around has been great for him. He's only 20 years old, he's getting quality minutes in pretty much every game, his offense is being mentored by one of the best post scorers in the NBA, so I just don't see how changing that so he can play more minutes helps him or the Jazz now or in the future.

I feel the same way about Burks, the difference is that the guy that is playing ahead of him (Foye) isn't better than him right now, but the guy that he is sharing minutes with (DMC) is. I think Burks role should be similar to Kanters, there are 3 players that are better than him right now (DMC, Marvin, Hayward) that should be getting the bulk of the minutes while Burks plays a supporting role, gets some quality minutes, and learns to be his best in that role.

TheMagnus wrote:

I love what I am seeing from both Kanter and Favors right now, love it. They are both playing with confidence and energy and (most importantly) attitude.

That "attitude" is the thing I have started to notice lately. Both Favors & Kanter have been getting in people's faces & getting a little "nasty" lately. I love that. Not "dirty", just "tough". Being at the game live yesterday gave me an even better understanding of their new found attitudes (especially Enes). I don't think the camera catches all the little chest bumps, stare downs, shoulder blocks, etc that those guys are putting on opposing players. The Wolves bigs, even Love & Pecovic who are both big dudes, were getting very frusterated with the phsyical play.

zero24gravity wrote:

TheMagnus wrote:

I love what I am seeing from both Kanter and Favors right now, love it. They are both playing with confidence and energy and (most importantly) attitude.

That "attitude" is the thing I have started to notice lately. Both Favors & Kanter have been getting in people's faces & getting a little "nasty" lately. I love that. Not "dirty", just "tough". Being at the game live yesterday gave me an even better understanding of their new found attitudes (especially Enes). I don't think the camera catches all the little chest bumps, stare downs, shoulder blocks, etc that those guys are putting on opposing players. The Wolves bigs, even Love & Pecovic who are both big dudes, were getting very frusterated with the phsyical play.

Well Love sucked all night so that could have been part of it, Millsap really gets up for his matchups against marquee players like Love and Griffin.

Kanter is actually really lucky he didn't get T'd up a couple times, especially when he went after Steisma for hitting Watson in the head, but I do love the attitude.

TheMagnus wrote:

I kind of half agree with you, and half not.

I mean, I definitely see where you are coming from, with Mo's injury you have written off your hopes for this season and are pinning your hopes on the future, so from that perspective what you are saying makes sense...sort of.

I love what I am seeing from both Kanter and Favors right now, love it. They are both playing with confidence and energy and (most importantly) attitude. Kanter looks like he is getting back to being Big Turkey and enjoying the game.

Here's the thing about Kanter though, dude has a big old type A personality with natural confidence (as you said), and I actually think what is happening now is the best thing for him. The guys that are playing in front of him are better than he is right now, that is a fact, and I think the worst thing you can do for a guy like Kanter is hand him something just because you (or he) thinks he should be entitled to it. Make him work for it it, make him struggle, make him learn how to do his best in a limited role before you hand him the reins and let him take over. I don't think the situation this year stunts his growth at all, if anything having guys like Jefferson and Millsap (especially Jefferson) around has been great for him. He's only 20 years old, he's getting quality minutes in pretty much every game, his offense is being mentored by one of the best post scorers in the NBA, so I just don't see how changing that so he can play more minutes helps him or the Jazz now or in the future.

I feel the same way about Burks, the difference is that the guy that is playing ahead of him (Foye) isn't better than him right now, but the guy that he is sharing minutes with (DMC) is. I think Burks role should be similar to Kanters, there are 3 players that are better than him right now (DMC, Marvin, Hayward) that should be getting the bulk of the minutes while Burks plays a supporting role, gets some quality minutes, and learns to be his best in that role.

I definitely see your point on the mentoring and share the enthusiasm watching both Enes and Favors asserting themselves, being tough. With their size "toughness" has a whole other level with respect to what other teams encounter in the paint. But regarding playing time I frequently just don't get Ty sitting him down the times when he is clearly outplaying the other bigs on the Jazz roster. Far too often he is pulled for Al even when Al is having a horrible night, or even Sap or Favors. My opinion is when you are developing a young player you also let them have "great nights" to reinforce there confidence and aspirations to become dominant. You reward them with playing time. I don't think it's a flow killer to sit a vet not getting it done. Plus, lets face it, the Jazz aren't looking remotely like a playoff team coming out of the West this year, what with Golden State and suddenly, unbelievably, friggin Houston, inserting themselves in the conversation. I can't be the only one seeing this, (right, Jazz FO?). Everyone in the league knows what Sap and Al can bring and you can bet there are plenty of GM's already prepping or delivering their pitches to Lindsey or gaming budget scenarios to go after them in free agency. Shorting those guys minutes now, even though they are better than Enes, will not hurt their trade value or market value. I'm not suggesting Enes start, he still has to earn that, but I would love to see him getting 20 minutes of tick every night, especially quality minutes against opposing premier starters who can school him or even better, instill the belief that he belongs out there with them in the very near future.

Man, I wonder if anyone saw how successful UnderKanter was going to be last year.....sure looks like he does indeed bring skills to this team..... hmmmm

Here's what I want: 5 more minutes. 5 more minutes per game for Underkanter, and take them away from Al. Al is a great post scorer, but his deficiencies make the overall team worse. Use his great post scoring, but dont over-rely on it (Foye too).
Enes has proven, in all the right ways, that he deserves more minutes. And its better for the team now, and later, at this point.

2.5 more minutes per half for him, taken directly from Al's minutes. That would put him at 20per, which is just right for the skills he's shown, the lack of "hurting" the team when he's out there, and his overall attitude and growth.

MTJazz wrote:

I definitely see your point on the mentoring and share the enthusiasm watching both Enes and Favors asserting themselves, being tough. With their size "toughness" has a whole other level with respect to what other teams encounter in the paint. But regarding playing time I frequently just don't get Ty sitting him down the times when he is clearly outplaying the other bigs on the Jazz roster. Far too often he is pulled for Al even when Al is having a horrible night, or even Sap or Favors. My opinion is when you are developing a young player you also let them have "great nights" to reinforce there confidence and aspirations to become dominant. You reward them with playing time. I don't think it's a flow killer to sit a vet not getting it done. Plus, lets face it, the Jazz aren't looking remotely like a playoff team coming out of the West this year, what with Golden State and suddenly, unbelievably, friggin Houston, inserting themselves in the conversation. I can't be the only one seeing this, (right, Jazz FO?). Everyone in the league knows what Sap and Al can bring and you can bet there are plenty of GM's already prepping or delivering their pitches to Lindsey or gaming budget scenarios to go after them in free agency. Shorting those guys minutes now, even though they are better than Enes, will not hurt their trade value or market value. I'm not suggesting Enes start, he still has to earn that, but I would love to see him getting 20 minutes of tick every night, especially quality minutes against opposing premier starters who can school him or even better, instill the belief that he belongs out there with them in the very near future.

While I agree about the rotations, Corbin seems more than willing to sit Millsap his unwillingness to sit Jefferson is one of my biggest pet peevs, there really isn't 20 minutes a game to be had without trading somebody. Favors deserves the minutes more than Kanter right now, and he's only playing 22 a night.

TheMagnus wrote:

While I agree about the rotations, Corbin seems more than willing to sit Millsap his unwillingness to sit Jefferson is one of my biggest pet peevs, there really isn't 20 minutes a game to be had without trading somebody. Favors deserves the minutes more than Kanter right now, and he's only playing 22 a night.

Funny, I look at Favors and Kanter as equals right now, on deserving some more minutes. I see Fav drifting in an out a bit, while it seems Enes never stops working. Enes got starter minutes exactly one time this year, against Toronto, and went for 18/8 4-5 fts etc. They guys is ready for more..... On the other hand, yea, there aren't enough to go around. Al is playing too much, but then again, haven't you seen Paul look like he wasn't as much into it too lately?? (until last night it seemed).

Kanter and Fav need minutes. 5 less for Al, few more for Paul at SF, much less for Foye. Let the dominos fall: Foye less minutes go to Gordo/DC, SF mins fall to Paul, PF mins fall to Fav, C mins fall to UnderKanter.

Mutangclan wrote:

Funny, I look at Favors and Kanter as equals right now, on deserving some more minutes. I see Fav drifting in an out a bit, while it seems Enes never stops working. Enes got starter minutes exactly one time this year, against Toronto, and went for 18/8 4-5 fts etc. They guys is ready for more..... On the other hand, yea, there aren't enough to go around. Al is playing too much, but then again, haven't you seen Paul look like he wasn't as much into it too lately?? (until last night it seemed).

Kanter and Fav need minutes. 5 less for Al, few more for Paul at SF, much less for Foye. Let the dominos fall: Foye less minutes go to Gordo/DC, SF mins fall to Paul, PF mins fall to Fav, C mins fall to UnderKanter.

Still blows me away that Jefferson can litterally suck ass for weeks and nobody says boo about it but as soon as Millsap has a couple off games and sits a 4th quarter all of a sudden he "doesn't care anymore" and must have something wrong with him.

Sure I've noticed that he's had some off games, so has litterally everybody else, as far as him being out of it, I've been watching the games and overall I don't think it has been an issue. He's still the best player on the team and his performance is consistent with what we SHOULD be expecting from him.

No doubt Enes has been improving, but he's still wildly inconsistent, he fouls too much, and he turns the ball over A LOT. Favors has also been steadily improving as the season goes on, he's been better than Kanter in almost every way, but I still think he is playing out of position, and I'd like to see him play more C, which is why I think that if they take minutes from Jefferson they should go to Favors.

TheMagnus wrote:

While I agree about the rotations, Corbin seems more than willing to sit Millsap his unwillingness to sit Jefferson is one of my biggest pet peevs, there really isn't 20 minutes a game to be had without trading somebody. Favors deserves the minutes more than Kanter right now, and he's only playing 22 a night.

Not sure I'm on the same Favors bandwagon, I think he is getting just enough minutes. He isn't blowing me away with his "potential" anymore. I think he will become a better player simply with more experience, but what we are seeing is likely the big picture: can become a defensive presence that can anchor team defense but will always be a limited scorer and average rebounder, a great player to have on a team that has total buy-in on team D and other players to fill the scoring box. Kanter, on the other hand, is clearly a well above average rebounder, arguably just as good on defense and has a nice offensive game emerging.

MTJazz wrote:

Not sure I'm on the same Favors bandwagon, I think he is getting just enough minutes. He isn't blowing me away with his "potential" anymore. I think he will become a better player simply with more experience, but what we are seeing is likely the big picture: can become a defensive presence that can anchor team defense but will always be a limited scorer and average rebounder, a great player to have on a team that has total buy-in on team D and other players to fill the scoring box. Kanter, on the other hand, is clearly a well above average rebounder, arguably just as good on defense and has a nice offensive game emerging.

Favors is outrebounding Kanter this season, both per game and per minute.

Don't overlook the fact that Kanter's game changed a fair bit this summer when he lost all of that weight and got more athletic. I'm not sure if you can take last years gaudy rebounding numbers and just give him the title of "Great Rebounder" for life based on that performance.

And no way in hell Kanter is ever close to Favors on D. On top of the fact that he simply hasn't ever been in any way shape or form, he doesn't have the tools, and he doesn't have the ability, so imagining that he somehow could surpass Favors in the future is a fairy tale.

TheMagnus wrote:

Mutangclan wrote:

Funny, I look at Favors and Kanter as equals right now, on deserving some more minutes. I see Fav drifting in an out a bit, while it seems Enes never stops working. Enes got starter minutes exactly one time this year, against Toronto, and went for 18/8 4-5 fts etc. They guys is ready for more..... On the other hand, yea, there aren't enough to go around. Al is playing too much, but then again, haven't you seen Paul look like he wasn't as much into it too lately?? (until last night it seemed).

Kanter and Fav need minutes. 5 less for Al, few more for Paul at SF, much less for Foye. Let the dominos fall: Foye less minutes go to Gordo/DC, SF mins fall to Paul, PF mins fall to Fav, C mins fall to UnderKanter.

Still blows me away that Jefferson can litterally suck ass for weeks and nobody says boo about it but as soon as Millsap has a couple off games and sits a 4th quarter all of a sudden he "doesn't care anymore" and must have something wrong with him.

Sure I've noticed that he's had some off games, so has litterally everybody else, as far as him being out of it, I've been watching the games and overall I don't think it has been an issue. He's still the best player on the team and his performance is consistent with what we SHOULD be expecting from him.

No doubt Enes has been improving, but he's still wildly inconsistent, he fouls too much, and he turns the ball over A LOT. Favors has also been steadily improving as the season goes on, he's been better than Kanter in almost every way, but I still think he is playing out of position, and I'd like to see him play more C, which is why I think that if they take minutes from Jefferson they should go to Favors.

Its because I think everyone knows what Al is. He's a post scorer and thats it. And as long as he's doing his post-scoring, then he's still the same ole same ole. As for sucking, Al's been 17 and 9 the last two weeks, so for him, thats not sucking, but standard Al. But when Paul isn't getting the rebs, steals, putbacks or doing the hustle things he's known for doing, he seems "off". Which he has been. I think thats why Corbin has been sitting him, because Paul doesn't seem much into it. (I've wondered if Paul heard something about being traded...) Not saying that was the correct decision, but nonetheless. Paul wouldn't be sitting so much, if Al sat more, which is the better decision.

I dont know about Kanter v Fav. One is turning it over twice a game, and one 1.5 a game. I agree on Fav at Center, but I think any combination of Fav/Kanter/Paul is fine. And I'd like to see more Paul/Kanter lineups.

As for defense, I think right now Kanters post D is as good as Favors. Pick and roll, eh, not so sure any of them are any good. Fav just gets more blocked shots. But down in the trenches, Kanter holds his own, as well as Fav when it's dumped in.

You're right on Kanters rebounding Mag, I definitely noticed that. I think actually that right now, is first real season, he's trying to put it all together, thinking and just reacting, and doing a pretty good job of it. But his natural rebounding skills, have taken a backseat temporarily because of all the other things he's working on, and doing well.
I'd bet his rebounding soars back up next year, when it all comes together.

TheMagnus wrote:

MTJazz wrote:

Not sure I'm on the same Favors bandwagon, I think he is getting just enough minutes. He isn't blowing me away with his "potential" anymore. I think he will become a better player simply with more experience, but what we are seeing is likely the big picture: can become a defensive presence that can anchor team defense but will always be a limited scorer and average rebounder, a great player to have on a team that has total buy-in on team D and other players to fill the scoring box. Kanter, on the other hand, is clearly a well above average rebounder, arguably just as good on defense and has a nice offensive game emerging.

Favors is outrebounding Kanter this season, both per game and per minute.

Don't overlook the fact that Kanter's game changed a fair bit this summer when he lost all of that weight and got more athletic. I'm not sure if you can take last years gaudy rebounding numbers and just give him the title of "Great Rebounder" for life based on that performance.

And no way in hell Kanter is ever close to Favors on D. On top of the fact that he simply hasn't ever been in any way shape or form, he doesn't have the tools, and he doesn't have the ability, so imagining that he somehow could surpass Favors in the future is a fairy tale.

Fair enough on rebounding, I guess I am over-weighting his performance last year in that department, and the stats don't lie with respect to Favors outdoing him per minute. On D, while yes, Favors gets his share of swats and changes shots and is obviously a good defender, I think Kanter is underrated. He puts his body on people more than Favors and plays excellent position D. He is more and more getting under the skin of opponents. It is true that Favors typically sees more starters than Kanter, but I stand by opinion that he isn't that far off in comparison. I think both are going to have long and productive careers but I just sense that Kanter is a better student of the game and ultimately has more upside. I'm psyched to have them both on the team, they can become very good big man anchors in the post-Jefferson era where I imagine the Jazz will be forced to play more to their strengths (non-post up game)

Mutangclan wrote:

Its because I think everyone knows what Al is. He's a post scorer and thats it. And as long as he's doing his post-scoring, then he's still the same ole same ole. As for sucking, Al's been 17 and 9 the last two weeks, so for him, thats not sucking, but standard Al. But when Paul isn't getting the rebs, steals, putbacks or doing the hustle things he's known for doing, he seems "off". Which he has been. I think thats why Corbin has been sitting him, because Paul doesn't seem much into it. (I've wondered if Paul heard something about being traded...) Not saying that was the correct decision, but nonetheless. Paul wouldn't be sitting so much, if Al sat more, which is the better decision.

I dont know about Kanter v Fav. One is turning it over twice a game, and one 1.5 a game. I agree on Fav at Center, but I think any combination of Fav/Kanter/Paul is fine. And I'd like to see more Paul/Kanter lineups.

Ya, you are getting to the main point of my argument there. What we are talking about here is perception vs. reality, because what you are saying is the perception, and what I'm telling you is reality.

Sure Jefferson has been solid the last two weeks, two weeks were the Jazz played 4 games total. The two weeks before that Jefferson was awful in 6 of the Jazz 8 games, he looked completely disinterested and tired, he shot the ball terribly adn the only player to have a worse on/off rating ove rthe last 15 games was Randy Foye, nobody. Jefferson was by far and away the worst in both on/off and +/-.

But Jefferson has continued to play 30+ minutes in every game but one, unlike Millsap, who has only seen 30+ minutes in 1 of the Jazz last 10 games.

So let's solve this mystery.... Millsaps per game numbers are falling, what could be the cause? Is it effort? Is he mad about something? It couldn't be the fact that he's averaging fewer minutes, could it?

Millsaps per minute production hasn't changed, his shooting has actually been better than it was at the beginning of the season, and he's still rebounding blocking shots and getting steals, but Millsap is getting 26 minutes a game over the last 10, instead of the 32 minutes he was playing before. The Jazz record in those games? 3-7.

Interesting stat of the day, the Jazz are 9-7 when Millsap plays more than 30 minutes, and 7-10 when he doesn't.

And there you have reasons #2 and #3 why I have lost faith in Ty Corbin.

TheMagnus wrote:

Mutangclan wrote:

Its because I think everyone knows what Al is. He's a post scorer and thats it. And as long as he's doing his post-scoring, then he's still the same ole same ole. As for sucking, Al's been 17 and 9 the last two weeks, so for him, thats not sucking, but standard Al. But when Paul isn't getting the rebs, steals, putbacks or doing the hustle things he's known for doing, he seems "off". Which he has been. I think thats why Corbin has been sitting him, because Paul doesn't seem much into it. (I've wondered if Paul heard something about being traded...) Not saying that was the correct decision, but nonetheless. Paul wouldn't be sitting so much, if Al sat more, which is the better decision.

I dont know about Kanter v Fav. One is turning it over twice a game, and one 1.5 a game. I agree on Fav at Center, but I think any combination of Fav/Kanter/Paul is fine. And I'd like to see more Paul/Kanter lineups.

Ya, you are getting to the main point of my argument there. What we are talking about here is perception vs. reality, because what you are saying is the perception, and what I'm telling you is reality.

Sure Jefferson has been solid the last two weeks, two weeks were the Jazz played 4 games total. The two weeks before that Jefferson was awful in 6 of the Jazz 8 games, he looked completely disinterested and tired, he shot the ball terribly adn the only player to have a worse on/off rating ove rthe last 15 games was Randy Foye, nobody. Jefferson was by far and away the worst in both on/off and +/-.

But Jefferson has continued to play 30+ minutes in every game but one, unlike Millsap, who has only seen 30+ minutes in 1 of the Jazz last 10 games.

So let's solve this mystery.... Millsaps per game numbers are falling, what could be the cause? Is it effort? Is he mad about something? It couldn't be the fact that he's averaging fewer minutes, could it?

Millsaps per minute production hasn't changed, his shooting has actually been better than it was at the beginning of the season, and he's still rebounding blocking shots and getting steals, but Millsap is getting 26 minutes a game over the last 10, instead of the 32 minutes he was playing before. The Jazz record in those games? 3-7.

Interesting stat of the day, the Jazz are 9-7 when Millsap plays more than 30 minutes, and 7-10 when he doesn't.

And there you have reasons #2 and #3 why I have lost faith in Ty Corbin.

Now Magnus, who is perceiving and who is realistic??? I put up there that Al should be sitting more and Paul playing more. But your next paragraph you put what you preceived in Al as disinterested and tired, right? But not Paul?

Reality is that in the last month, Al has averaged 17pts, 9rebs and 1.5blks per game. His Fantasy rankings(which are TOTALLY made for a player like AL) are #20 last 14 days, #19 the last 30 days, and #10 for the season. Thats pretty good stats, its not perceived. But you have to take Al for what he is: a guy that gets those type of stats, good stats at that, is a great post scorer, but doesn't do a darn thing else for his team. So when Al does that, he's being Al, and thats really all we can expect from him. All the +/- in the world doesn't change anything, Al is always doing Al, and isn't he always getting a terrible +/- score? Thats nothing new, we all know what Al is about. Just like we dont expect Randy to play defense or rack up 10 assists.

Paul on the other hand is a much more well rounded player, does 10x the little things Al does to help the team win. So when he isn't doing those things, it shows. And his player rankings aren't anywhere near Al's.

I think it's strange that I can say I see a change in Pauls play, and you tell me all the reasons I"m wrong. But next paragraph you can say all the changes you've seen in Al's play. Maybe the problem here is you wanting to compare the two players all the time. I started off this whole thing by saying Paul should be playing more and Al sitting more.

And I think you're giving your boy Paul a pass on the disinterested stuff he's shown lately.....

Lastly though we obviously agree on, Al and Paul both, along with Foye, DC, Fav and Kanter are all affected by the CorbinFlu. His coaching is costing the Jazz wins, and those players success.

Mutangclan wrote:

Lastly though we obviously agree on, Al and Paul both, along with Foye, DC, Fav and Kanter are all affected by the CorbinFlu. His coaching is costing the Jazz wins, and those players success.

Along those lines, I do think that Sap may have lost some focus and it shows up in inconsistency, which he is not up to now known for. Think about it...he turned down the Jazz on an extension, he pretty much made it clear, i.e. Carlos, he is moving on for a better pay check AND a shot at playing for a team either currently built for in the process of being constructed for a realistic title run, which sadly, the Jazz are not capable of, like probably ever unless the basketball gods deliver another Stock-to-Malone. It has to be a little depressing to be Paul, overlooked by many in the league as is, to realize the current team and coaching has a rapidly closing window to make the playoffs, where reputations are made that translate into free agency bidding wars. It would be natural to lose some focus as the season becomes a frustrating grind with no payoff, and in his case, getting less minutes. A guy like Paul is hugely successful because his game is all about hustle and focus. Kanter is too young in his career to have these concerns and Al knows he will get a sick payday purely on the basis of his box score prowess.

A cure for Corbin Flu is Avery Johnson.

MTJazz wrote:

A cure for Corbin Flu is Avery Johnson.

I was just saying the same thing the other day to a couple people. Maybe it's a case of the "grass is always greener", but it seems like Johnson is a good coach, who just hasn't found his proper home yet.

zero24gravity wrote:

MTJazz wrote:

A cure for Corbin Flu is Avery Johnson.

I was just saying the same thing the other day to a couple people. Maybe it's a case of the "grass is always greener", but it seems like Johnson is a good coach, who just hasn't found his proper home yet.

I don't really love avery's offensive philosophy. I have a similar feeling about Nate Macmillan, good coaches, but they both have had limited success with good teams. I'd almost rather see them go younger, I really like what I see from guys like Vaughn and Mark Jackson.

TheMagnus wrote:

zero24gravity wrote:

MTJazz wrote:

A cure for Corbin Flu is Avery Johnson.

I was just saying the same thing the other day to a couple people. Maybe it's a case of the "grass is always greener", but it seems like Johnson is a good coach, who just hasn't found his proper home yet.

I don't really love avery's offensive philosophy. I have a similar feeling about Nate Macmillan, good coaches, but they both have had limited success with good teams. I'd almost rather see them go younger, I really like what I see from guys like Vaughn and Mark Jackson.

I agree about Vaughn. The Jazz may have picked the wrong former Jazzman as their coach.

Mutangclan wrote:

Now Magnus, who is perceiving and who is realistic??? I put up there that Al should be sitting more and Paul playing more. But your next paragraph you put what you preceived in Al as disinterested and tired, right? But not Paul?

Reality is that in the last month, Al has averaged 17pts, 9rebs and 1.5blks per game. His Fantasy rankings(which are TOTALLY made for a player like AL) are #20 last 14 days, #19 the last 30 days, and #10 for the season. Thats pretty good stats, its not perceived. But you have to take Al for what he is: a guy that gets those type of stats, good stats at that, is a great post scorer, but doesn't do a darn thing else for his team. So when Al does that, he's being Al, and thats really all we can expect from him. All the +/- in the world doesn't change anything, Al is always doing Al, and isn't he always getting a terrible +/- score? Thats nothing new, we all know what Al is about. Just like we dont expect Randy to play defense or rack up 10 assists.

Paul on the other hand is a much more well rounded player, does 10x the little things Al does to help the team win. So when he isn't doing those things, it shows. And his player rankings aren't anywhere near Al's.

I think it's strange that I can say I see a change in Pauls play, and you tell me all the reasons I"m wrong. But next paragraph you can say all the changes you've seen in Al's play. Maybe the problem here is you wanting to compare the two players all the time. I started off this whole thing by saying Paul should be playing more and Al sitting more.

And I think you're giving your boy Paul a pass on the disinterested stuff he's shown lately.....

Lastly though we obviously agree on, Al and Paul both, along with Foye, DC, Fav and Kanter are all affected by the CorbinFlu. His coaching is costing the Jazz wins, and those players success.

I think we agree on most of this, I was simply pointing out the double standard, not saying that your points don't apply to Millsap or that you were wrong. In fact that was the first thing I said. And if I'm giving Millsap a pass it has to be less generous than the one you are giving Jefferson.

The fantasy rankings have no bearing on my points because they are obviously heavily biased towards minutes. I was recently offered to trade Gasol (mine) for Millsap, if those two were playing the same minutes I would have taken the deal in a heartbeat, but Corbin keeps cutting Millsap's minutes so I couldn't take it.

My point about perception and reality was simply this...

Perception: Al is just what he is and produces the same almost regardless of anything else.

Reality: Al suffers from wider swings in effort and usefulness than Millsap, and more than almost any other player on the Jazz.

Perception: Millsap is in a "slump", or there is something wrong with him.

Reality: Nothing is wrong with Millsap, he's still producing the same as he always has, his box scores aren't as good simply because he is playing less.

So whatever you want to say about his attitude or his body language, the fact is that his production per minute has not seen a noticeable decrease, if anything it has improved. What makes it truly ridiculous is that he really has been the best player on the team, again, for the third year in a row, and while other guys like Foye and Jefferson can half-ass it all they want and not see their time cut, he is getting his minutes cut more and more every time he misses a couple shots. So it doesn't really surprise me at all that he would be pissed about what is going on right now.

Mutangclan wrote:

TheMagnus wrote:

Mutangclan wrote:

Its because I think everyone knows what Al is. He's a post scorer and thats it. And as long as he's doing his post-scoring, then he's still the same ole same ole. As for sucking, Al's been 17 and 9 the last two weeks, so for him, thats not sucking, but standard Al. But when Paul isn't getting the rebs, steals, putbacks or doing the hustle things he's known for doing, he seems "off". Which he has been. I think thats why Corbin has been sitting him, because Paul doesn't seem much into it. (I've wondered if Paul heard something about being traded...) Not saying that was the correct decision, but nonetheless. Paul wouldn't be sitting so much, if Al sat more, which is the better decision.

I dont know about Kanter v Fav. One is turning it over twice a game, and one 1.5 a game. I agree on Fav at Center, but I think any combination of Fav/Kanter/Paul is fine. And I'd like to see more Paul/Kanter lineups.

Ya, you are getting to the main point of my argument there. What we are talking about here is perception vs. reality, because what you are saying is the perception, and what I'm telling you is reality.

Sure Jefferson has been solid the last two weeks, two weeks were the Jazz played 4 games total. The two weeks before that Jefferson was awful in 6 of the Jazz 8 games, he looked completely disinterested and tired, he shot the ball terribly adn the only player to have a worse on/off rating ove rthe last 15 games was Randy Foye, nobody. Jefferson was by far and away the worst in both on/off and +/-.

But Jefferson has continued to play 30+ minutes in every game but one, unlike Millsap, who has only seen 30+ minutes in 1 of the Jazz last 10 games.

So let's solve this mystery.... Millsaps per game numbers are falling, what could be the cause? Is it effort? Is he mad about something? It couldn't be the fact that he's averaging fewer minutes, could it?

Millsaps per minute production hasn't changed, his shooting has actually been better than it was at the beginning of the season, and he's still rebounding blocking shots and getting steals, but Millsap is getting 26 minutes a game over the last 10, instead of the 32 minutes he was playing before. The Jazz record in those games? 3-7.

Interesting stat of the day, the Jazz are 9-7 when Millsap plays more than 30 minutes, and 7-10 when he doesn't.

And there you have reasons #2 and #3 why I have lost faith in Ty Corbin.

Now Magnus, who is perceiving and who is realistic??? I put up there that Al should be sitting more and Paul playing more. But your next paragraph you put what you preceived in Al as disinterested and tired, right? But not Paul?

Reality is that in the last month, Al has averaged 17pts, 9rebs and 1.5blks per game. His Fantasy rankings(which are TOTALLY made for a player like AL) are #20 last 14 days, #19 the last 30 days, and #10 for the season. Thats pretty good stats, its not perceived. But you have to take Al for what he is: a guy that gets those type of stats, good stats at that, is a great post scorer, but doesn't do a darn thing else for his team. So when Al does that, he's being Al, and thats really all we can expect from him. All the +/- in the world doesn't change anything, Al is always doing Al, and isn't he always getting a terrible +/- score? Thats nothing new, we all know what Al is about. Just like we dont expect Randy to play defense or rack up 10 assists.

Paul on the other hand is a much more well rounded player, does 10x the little things Al does to help the team win. So when he isn't doing those things, it shows. And his player rankings aren't anywhere near Al's.

I think it's strange that I can say I see a change in Pauls play, and you tell me all the reasons I"m wrong. But next paragraph you can say all the changes you've seen in Al's play. Maybe the problem here is you wanting to compare the two players all the time. I started off this whole thing by saying Paul should be playing more and Al sitting more.

And I think you're giving your boy Paul a pass on the disinterested stuff he's shown lately.....

Lastly though we obviously agree on, Al and Paul both, along with Foye, DC, Fav and Kanter are all affected by the CorbinFlu. His coaching is costing the Jazz wins, and those players success.

One thing I'm certain of is that the NBA does not want to see player development or team improvement during NBA games. The way Stern sanctioned SA's Pop for sitting Duncan, Parker, Ginobli and Green for a game against Miami (which, IMO, was a brilliant coaching move) shows NBA leadership is much more focused on the entertainment value of the NBA than the competition aspect of the entire NBA. I think the NBA wants Big Al as much as they can get him. And, unless any lineup presents the viewing audience with something more exciting than the superstar match-ups, I don't think the NBA wants to see it.

Just about all the posts on this thread and on this site have great ideas about how the Jazz can improve. Obviously, Kanter needs more burn for the Jazz to improve. But, the NBA is a business, and the improvement of the Jazz is probably really low on the NBA's priority. (I'm not saying we shouldn't do what we can, but, the NBA wants fireworks, not well-though-out planning for the future.)

TheMagnus wrote:

I think we agree on most of this, I was simply pointing out the double standard, not saying that your points don't apply to Millsap or that you were wrong. In fact that was the first thing I said. And if I'm giving Millsap a pass it has to be less generous than the one you are giving Jefferson.

The fantasy rankings have no bearing on my points because they are obviously heavily biased towards minutes. I was recently offered to trade Gasol (mine) for Millsap, if those two were playing the same minutes I would have taken the deal in a heartbeat, but Corbin keeps cutting Millsap's minutes so I couldn't take it.

My point about perception and reality was simply this...

Perception: Al is just what he is and produces the same almost regardless of anything else.

Reality: Al suffers from wider swings in effort and usefulness than Millsap, and more than almost any other player on the Jazz.

Perception: Millsap is in a "slump", or there is something wrong with him.

Reality: Nothing is wrong with Millsap, he's still producing the same as he always has, his box scores aren't as good simply because he is playing less.

So whatever you want to say about his attitude or his body language, the fact is that his production per minute has not seen a noticeable decrease, if anything it has improved. What makes it truly ridiculous is that he really has been the best player on the team, again, for the third year in a row, and while other guys like Foye and Jefferson can half-ass it all they want and not see their time cut, he is getting his minutes cut more and more every time he misses a couple shots. So it doesn't really surprise me at all that he would be pissed about what is going on right now.

But thats the thing, I'm not giving Al a pass. I just know what to expect, or better yet NOT to expect from him. So what is the reality on Al? No matter how much effort he puts in, he's still Al Jefferson who at his peak, is a double double, 1.5 blks a game, and does NOTHING to help his team win. So in a round about way, we agree. I'm just saying with him, unlike Paul, if his effort isn't there, he still is just Al, who never helps his team win anyway outside of post scoring.
But when Paul is off, he affects the whole team because he does so much and is such a good player.

On Paul, if his stats are the same per 30mins or whatever, then you win that one. Maybe it is just his pissed off-ness about not playing.

But we have NO argument, in that Corbin is screwing all this up. Paul/Fav/Kanter need more minutes, and a big start to that is playing Al less.

Just saw that Kanter is probably out for tomorrows game with a sprained ankle, tough break for a guy who was just coming on. Hopefully he gets back soon.

TheMagnus wrote:

Just saw that Kanter is probably out for tomorrows game with a sprained ankle, tough break for a guy who was just coming on. Hopefully he gets back soon.

That SUCKS!

refssuckclips wrote:

TheMagnus wrote:

Just saw that Kanter is probably out for tomorrows game with a sprained ankle, tough break for a guy who was just coming on. Hopefully he gets back soon.

That SUCKS!

Richard, sent ya a PM about your account.