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 Best free agents of 2013

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Drive"N"Kick
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PostSubject: Re: Best free agents of 2013   Sat May 25, 2013 1:26 am

Theonly reason Stockton doesn't have a ring is because of the refs calling the games for the big market bulls.
And yes that Lakers team would have won rings with stockton instead of magic. Magic was showtime, Stockton was everytime.
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Mutangclan
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PostSubject: Re: Best free agents of 2013   Sun May 26, 2013 5:56 pm

aliveandkickin wrote:
Mutangclan wrote:
aliveandkickin wrote:
As much as I love Stockton, Magic, with the matchup problems he created, is the best pg ever... It's all speculation but look at it this way: If Magic and Stockton switched teams- the Jazz would have rings. The Lakers with Stockton wouldn't be as great..

Disagree. The Lakers had 3 of the 50 all time greatest players, it wasn't just Magic.

As great as Magic was, Ive always thought of it this way: If someone wrote down the job description for a point guard, and had tryouts, and a full on job search, Stockton would score a 100 on every category, and would be considered the best man for the job.

John Stockton, best pure point guard, ever. (and this coming from a massive Pistons fan who emulated Isaiah Thomas at guard and always tried to rebound like Rodman, moved to Utah in 1989 and actually had his allegiance switched from World Champions to Stockton and Malone.)

Oh, and yea. No way in hell CP3 comes anywhere close to Utah, other than flying over.

That's cool. How about Magic being a pure pg as well- which he was. Imagine Stock being 6' 9"!!! It would have increased the Jazz' chances of having rings. They're basically the same player but Magic could play any position! advantage, obviously, Magic.

Unless you include things like defending opposing teams PGs.

And having Kareem instead of Eaton would have helped just a bit. Those Lakers had 3 HOF's, while Utah had 2.
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PostSubject: Re: Best free agents of 2013   Sun May 26, 2013 5:58 pm

Drive"N"Kick wrote:
Theonly reason Stockton doesn't have a ring is because of the refs calling the games for the big market bulls.
And yes that Lakers team would have won rings with stockton instead of magic. Magic was showtime, Stockton was everytime.

Thats a great line.
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PostSubject: Re: Best free agents of 2013   Wed May 29, 2013 4:08 am

aliveandkickin wrote:
As much as I love Stockton, Magic, with the matchup problems he created, is the best pg ever... It's all speculation but look at it this way: If Magic and Stockton switched teams- the Jazz would have rings. The Lakers with Stockton wouldn't be as great..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=au7WJbus5BM

Case in point: Could Stock win this game without Kareem? Maybe and maybe not, but Magic did as a rookie- on the biggest stage. Pretty cool seeing him interviewed by Hot Rod.. When asked he said he'll play forward and center on offense and guard Dr J on defense before the game (could Stock do that?).. but he played wherever they put him. Watch him layup one with Dr J not being able to block it. He draws contact from Dawkins at the rim and gets the "and one." He posts on offense, leads the break, and wins a ring with Kareem benched. If Stockton is everytime, Magic is everything. Indeed Magic was a pure point guard but he was the best pg because he could do anything he wanted.....Throw it out to Scott or Cooper and post his man... no prob getting off his baby hook. He hits threes, his assists , like Stocks, are mind-blowing with their creativity. What made him the best pg though was his size- combined with the skillset. Put Magic with Malone, B Russell, Horny, Ostertag, Big Dog, Chris Morris, Keefe, Shandon Anderson... and whomever was on the Jazz' finals teams and going from Stock to Magic makes that team multidimentional...At times Horny could have been the point guard, Russell the sg, Morris the sf, and have Magic and Malone play underneath the basket if they wanted to exploit Luke Longley. (like the Lakers exploited Dawkins).
Love Stockton, but lets not be delusional, Magic was everything- and he brought it everytime, like Stockton, but Magic could do more for a team.
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PostSubject: Re: Best free agents of 2013   Wed May 29, 2013 4:22 am

Interestingly, the Bulls and Jazz both went 62-20 in the regular season in 1998 but in the finals the Jazz just had too many matchup problems to overcome... B Russ guarding Jordan, Horny guarding Pippen at times, Ron Harper defending Stockton with his long arms... The only mismatch the Jazz could exploit was Malone against Rodman.. and Rodman was still a tough player. Throw in Magic and the whole series is different. Wherever you put Magic he would have created problems for the Bulls. IOW, the game would have been on an even level with matchups. JMNSHO


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PostSubject: Re: Best free agents of 2013   Wed May 29, 2013 7:08 am

I just dont agree, and there is no case in point, there's nothing substantial that says that. Sure Magic was big, he had some great games and could see the lanes better probably, which only says more about Stockton having to find the holes. And you're completely leaving out the fact that Magic never defended anyone, his TEAM did. Stockton was a great defender.
IMO, if you put Stockton on the Lakers, they would have one more ring; against the Bulls.
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PostSubject: Re: Best free agents of 2013   Wed May 29, 2013 9:54 am

Mutangclan wrote:
I just dont agree, and there is no case in point, there's nothing substantial that says that. Sure Magic was big, he had some great games and could see the lanes better probably, which only says more about Stockton having to find the holes. And you're completely leaving out the fact that Magic never defended anyone, his TEAM did. Stockton was a great defender.
IMO, if you put Stockton on the Lakers, they would have one more ring; against the Bulls.

I gotta go with Alive on this one. Harp Jordan killed the jazz by posting those two guys. Horny and John were just to short.Yes john was all time steal master but once he was posted up jazz had to allways double down or else. But jazz made the best out of it and had it not been for a couple bad calls jazz would've been playing game 7 at home and i would've liked our chances. Lol why are we even talking about this. my dad can beat up your dad.
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PostSubject: Re: Best free agents of 2013   Wed May 29, 2013 10:26 am

So Stockton was more valuable because of his defense over Magic now? The POINT is Magic created mismatches. Look at that video bro- Magic could play defense, board, back down his man (a center), get to the line (feel free to look up their free throw career attempts ). Magic could take u inside or run the break.
Magic was a guard in a power forwards body. If Magic replaced Stockton when the Jazz had Dantley, Jeff Malone, John Drew, and Ricky Green - he would have played power forward- and that team would have been much better (yeah I said it) than repeating their assets with having another PG like Stockton - when the Jazz needed a bigman.. throw in Thurl Bailey who was on that team and man-made talk about stocked (no pun intended) . Magic would have helped the Jazz in terms of versatility that Stock simply couldn't achieve. He was the LaBron of his time the 12 yrs he played...inside, outside, unrelenting, fearless and being able to create mismatches in ANY position the coach put him.
Stockton had Malone to jack-up his assists. Magic had Kareem to jack-up his assists. They both were unarguably the best passers in the game, BUT, as the video shows (living proof) Magic got the job done, got his first ring, without Kareem (and Worthy) by being the LaBron of his time. Look at the stat line- now look up Stocktons playoff stats. Stockton's, frankly, are unremarkable - especially in the finals ... It pains me to say it, but put Magic on any team compared to Stockton and that team is better with Magic.. it's a fact!! Lol.
Good debate though...I guess
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PostSubject: Re: Best free agents of 2013   Wed May 29, 2013 11:04 am

Yeah sure... But you have to understand something... Magic played for the LAKERS, Stockton played for the JAZZ... BIG BIG BIG BIG BIG difference. The lakers have gotten more help and more undeserved rings than any franchise in any sport ever. They always have at least 20 mill more in contracts than the jazz. And yes Stockton created tons of matchup problems simply because you couldn't guard him. He was the best assist man ever, almost always shot over 50% fg and 40% 3s, he never picked up his dribble and he got doubled more than magic. Yes magic was really good, but put him on the jazz for his career and his numbers an productivity go down, put Stockton on the lakers and he gets more help from the refs, a lot more help BTW, has more talent on his team, and his numbers go up considerably. You have to take into account what team a player played for and how they were lookedat by the rest ofthe world.
Magic played for the showtime Lakers, Stockton was a little white guy playing in little Utah. The world loved Magic, the world didn't even know or care about Stockton until he started making noise in the playoffs, and even then he wasn't even close to as loved as Magic.
Who doyou think the league wanted to win more and be more successful.. The proofs in the pudding, and you said something about magic having more FT attempts... I wonder why... Maybe because you couldn't touch magic without 3 whistles blowing. I give a lot less credit and devalue players that play for huge market teams. Let's just put it this way, if Lebron got treated like millsap by the refs, he would be fouled out by halftime every game, and that 57% fg would look more like 48% due to the fact that 80% lebron misses a shot around the basket, they blow the whistle.
And BTW Malone didn't make Stockton a lot better, it was the other way around. Hewas just like Amare with Steve Nash. Put Malone on a different team, he wouldn't be close to what he is today. Put Stockton on a different team and he would be just as good.
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PostSubject: Re: Best free agents of 2013   Wed May 29, 2013 2:42 pm

Drive"N"Kick wrote:

And BTW Malone didn't make Stockton a lot better, it was the other way around. Hewas just like Amare with Steve Nash. Put Malone on a different team, he wouldn't be close to what he is today. Put Stockton on a different team and he would be just as good.

Funny, I've been hearing some version that for as long as I've been a Jazz fan. Depending on who a fan liked better, it was alwasy so-and-so making so-and-so better than they ever would have been alone.

I'm calling BS on the whole argument though, and as a Jazz fan who loved them both I find the whole thing a bit insulting. Malone was a once in a generation athlete, nobody, and I mean NOBODY, at that time had his combination of size, athleticism, and attitude. Stockton was the very definition of a guy that you simply could not keep down, his meticulous attnetion to detail, attitude towards the game, and inhuman durability made him what he was. Sure they complimented eachother and learned to enhance eachothers ability, but so has every good teamate in the history of ever.

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PostSubject: Re: Best free agents of 2013   Wed May 29, 2013 3:13 pm

Here's the thing about the Magic/Stockton argument, I think if you ask me the question in different ways I'm going to give you different answers.

What PG had the best career of all time? Stockton. And it's not even close. He has not one but TWO of the most unbreakable records in the history of NBA, he led the league in assists 9 years in a row. He played the 3rd most games and the 8th most minutes in the history of the NBA. He only missed games in 2 of his 19 seasons in the NBA, and he played at a ridiculously high level untill he retired at age 40. Don't even argue, you can't, he had the greatest career of any PG ever.

Who was the best PURE/PASSING/TRADITIONAL PG ever? I'm going Stockton again here. He was one of the best Defensive PG's ever, he led the league in assists for 9 years straight and holds nearly unbreakable records for assists and steals, and he was VERY VERY efficient when he shot the ball himself.

Who was the best PG ever? I think this question is the same as ...Out of all of the guys who were primarily PG's in the NBA, who was the best player in their prime. Here I'm going Magic. Overall he was just such an amazing and unique player. He nearly averaged a tripple double, for THREE STRAIGHT SEASONS. Ya, think on that for a minute or two. His 86-87 season has to be one of the greatest individual performances of all time, he averaged 24 points, 12 asists, 6 rebounds, shot 52% from the field and 85% from the free throw line and led his team to a championship in one of the All Time Classic playoff runs.

If I could trade stockton in his prime for Magic in his prime I'd do it in a second, and if I somebody offered me over 30 Magic for over 30 Stockton I'd say HELL NO!

It's fun to talk about this stuff though, take the walk down memory lane and kick up some dirt along the way.
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PostSubject: Re: Best free agents of 2013   Wed May 29, 2013 8:11 pm

TheMagnus wrote:
Drive"N"Kick wrote:

And BTW Malone didn't make Stockton a lot better, it was the other way around. Hewas just like Amare with Steve Nash. Put Malone on a different team, he wouldn't be close to what he is today. Put Stockton on a different team and he would be just as good.

Funny, I've been hearing some version that for as long as I've been a Jazz fan. Depending on who a fan liked better, it was alwasy so-and-so making so-and-so better than they ever would have been alone.

I'm calling BS on the whole argument though, and as a Jazz fan who loved them both I find the whole thing a bit insulting. Malone was a once in a generation athlete, nobody, and I mean NOBODY, at that time had his combination of size, athleticism, and attitude. Stockton was the very definition of a guy that you simply could not keep down, his meticulous attnetion to detail, attitude towards the game, and inhuman durability made him what he was. Sure they complimented eachother and learned to enhance eachothers ability, but so has every good teamate in the history of ever.


Pretty sure Stock and Malone were bound for the HOF no matter where they played, with or without each other. It was awesome to celebrate their convergence in the day as Jazzmen. May be the first and perhaps last time the Jazz will ever see the Finals. Twice in back-to-back years. So close. And MJ pushed off.
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PostSubject: Re: Best free agents of 2013   Wed May 29, 2013 10:04 pm

Yup MJ pushed off (best screen name ever), and the steal under the basket when he stripped Karl was a "veteran" steal.
The thing that bugged me about those finals games is if Stock could have scored on anyone- he would have upped his performance. He had a few 17/10 games at home but the rest were unremarkable. The Bulls having Kucoc (spelling) as well just made them so big with having guys that could beat you off the dribble it was matchup hell for the jazz but somehow they made it close-- except for the 54 pt Finals game.... that kinda sucked.
So in the dog days of summer I like philosophical and speculative discussions. For instance; Give me 8 Magics on a team and they'd win a ring. Give me 8 Stocktons and they wouldn't make the playoffs (talk about a post party). Give me 8 Kareems and they wouldn't get the ball past half court. Give me 8 Jordans and they'd still get posted too much to win a ring. Give me 8 LaBrons and they'd win a ring (except maybe against 8 Magics). Give me 8 dollars and I wouldn't ask for a ten because I knew you were short... Give me 8 Karl Malones and I'd go crazy, talking crazy ya'll, with post-game interviews "Karl Malone thinks this cuz this is what he thinks." ( I know a tired joke but seriously, imagine 3 consecutive interviews of three Malones , the horror).. If you asked me to endure those three interviews or see Jenifer Anistons turd with corn in it- I'd go with the turd- just to take a glimpse to see if it was pink, had dimples, and if the corn was partially digested.. It's really a no-brainer. You'd do it as well because of the story it could generate... Jenifer comes out of a stall, you didn't hear a flush, and curiosity gets the better of you--- there it is, corn popping out the sides like they're escaping Alcatraz or somethun.
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PostSubject: Re: Best free agents of 2013   Sat Jun 01, 2013 7:18 am

Wasn't this a discussion about who was the best POINT GUARD?

And thats easy for me, Stockton. I was talking about defense because Magic couldn't defend those other guards. Sure he could do ok in the post when he had to. But I talked about defense because all those championships had a TON to do with his teammates playing great D. They weren't winning all those because of Magic's no look passes. I mean, off the top of my head, wasn't Cooper and Kareem regular all defensive guys? Byron Scott and Worthy did it too. I know Cooper was a shut down guy.....

Anyway, Magic was a phenomenal player, and I agree with all the accolades he gets. Except when it comes down to who was the best PG ever, and it's Stockton all day. He just never EVER, had the same kind of teammates. (3 HOF same team, shutdown D guy Cooper etc.) And yea, I do believe, had Stockton been running that Laker team they would have done just as well, if not better.



Anyway x2, maybe now with Marv down, and losing his supposed 3pt shooting we're more likely to bring back Korver again. He's available and we need a SF.
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PostSubject: Re: Best free agents of 2013   Sat Jun 01, 2013 10:13 am

Mutangclan wrote:
Wasn't this a discussion about who was the best POINT GUARD?

And thats easy for me, Stockton. I was talking about defense because Magic couldn't defend those other guards. Sure he could do ok in the post when he had to. But I talked about defense because all those championships had a TON to do with his teammates playing great D. They weren't winning all those because of Magic's no look passes. I mean, off the top of my head, wasn't Cooper and Kareem regular all defensive guys? Byron Scott and Worthy did it too. I know Cooper was a shut down guy.....

Anyway, Magic was a phenomenal player, and I agree with all the accolades he gets. Except when it comes down to who was the best PG ever, and it's Stockton all day. He just never EVER, had the same kind of teammates. (3 HOF same team, shutdown D guy Cooper etc.) And yea, I do believe, had Stockton been running that Laker team they would have done just as well, if not better.



Anyway x2, maybe now with Marv down, and losing his supposed 3pt shooting we're more likely to bring back Korver again. He's available and we need a SF.

Marv Williams is going to be out 6 months so I think it is safe to say that he won't be playing any basketball for the Jazz and his salary will be paid by the insurance company so with these 2 things happening maybe the Jazz can turn him into a player or draft pick.

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/227936/Marvin-Williams-To-Undergo-Surgery-On-Right-Heel-Out-Six-Months
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PostSubject: Re: Best free agents of 2013   Sat Jun 01, 2013 11:19 am

Well I heard on here that we signed DemarrDog, but I wasn't sure, so anyways this injury to Marv should make sure we bring back Demarr, and hopefully he won't get anymore DNPs. And I would absolutley love to bring Korver back, I think he fits the jazz very well, and I think he got more love here from the fans than anywhere else he played, but I can't be sure about that.
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PostSubject: Re: Best free agents of 2013   Sat Jun 01, 2013 9:12 pm

aliveandkickin wrote:
Yup MJ pushed off (best screen name ever), and the steal under the basket when he stripped Karl was a "veteran" steal.
The thing that bugged me about those finals games is if Stock could have scored on anyone- he would have upped his performance. He had a few 17/10 games at home but the rest were unremarkable. The Bulls having Kucoc (spelling) as well just made them so big with having guys that could beat you off the dribble it was matchup hell for the jazz but somehow they made it close-- except for the 54 pt Finals game.... that kinda sucked.
So in the dog days of summer I like philosophical and speculative discussions. For instance; Give me 8 Magics on a team and they'd win a ring. Give me 8 Stocktons and they wouldn't make the playoffs (talk about a post party). Give me 8 Kareems and they wouldn't get the ball past half court. Give me 8 Jordans and they'd still get posted too much to win a ring. Give me 8 LaBrons and they'd win a ring (except maybe against 8 Magics). Give me 8 dollars and I wouldn't ask for a ten because I knew you were short... Give me 8 Karl Malones and I'd go crazy, talking crazy ya'll, with post-game interviews "Karl Malone thinks this cuz this is what he thinks." ( I know a tired joke but seriously, imagine 3 consecutive interviews of three Malones , the horror).. If you asked me to endure those three interviews or see Jenifer Anistons turd with corn in it- I'd go with the turd- just to take a glimpse to see if it was pink, had dimples, and if the corn was partially digested.. It's really a no-brainer. You'd do it as well because of the story it could generate... Jenifer comes out of a stall, you didn't hear a flush, and curiosity gets the better of you--- there it is, corn popping out the sides like they're escaping Alcatraz or somethun.

Dang. You have stolen my "Best Digression Award"!! Even though my "...threesome with Olivia Wilde and Zhang Zhiyi" digression was spread out over three posts in three different threads, I think ya got me here. Props.
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PostSubject: Re: Best free agents of 2013   Sat Jun 01, 2013 10:45 pm

Damn, it's all my fault this thread has gone all whacky. And I did a NASA-like redundancy plan to prevent it. Still, it's all gone astray. This was supposed to be a talk about current free agents. I, accidentally, started a discussion about who is the best all-time point guard. That's a good discussion, but, shouldn't it be on a thread called, "Who is the best PG ever?"

I said Chris Paul might consider coming to Utah to make the most of whatever career he has left. My mistake was to say it might give him a chance to prove he was one of the best PGs ever to play the game. There are lots of reasons why CP3 might never come to Utah, but, we haven't explored them. As it stands, IMO, CP3 is the best FA we could pursue, and, we might be the best place for CP3 to find a home.
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PostSubject: Re: Best free agents of 2013   Tue Jun 04, 2013 2:42 pm

Well if next season draft class and free-agent market is going to be as good as all of the experts are saying and if the Jazz can't really find a deal that they like maybe they talk to team's like Houston, Dallas who are looking to cut salary to try to sign Howard as a free agent or team's like the Pacers who are looking to cut salary so they can resign their own free-agents. Maybe along with getting a player or two that only has 1 season to play on their contract they also get draft picks for taking on these players I have not seen anyone talking about the Jazz going this route I think it might be the way to go.
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PostSubject: Re: Best free agents of 2013   Thu Jun 06, 2013 7:45 am

I opened this thread to read about the "best free agents", and instead I'm reading about Jennifer Aniston's turds. Something has gone terribly wrong here...

lol!
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PostSubject: Re: Best free agents of 2013   Thu Jun 06, 2013 6:31 pm

thejazzkickazz wrote:
I opened this thread to read about the "best free agents", and instead I'm reading about Jennifer Aniston's turds. Something has gone terribly wrong here...

lol!

You're free to blame me on taking the discussion aside-- but, I really tried to keep it on track Embarassed . Before I go any further, though, let me say: All Hail John Stockton as the best point guard ever! (And, if you want to debate that, start another thread!)

However, IMO, CP3 IS the best free agent available. And, I DO think he's available. IMO (I don't know how many IMO's are allowable in a single post), CP3 will be set for life, financially, no matter where he goes. IMO, CP3 has a better chance of increasing his NBA legacy in Utah than anywhere else in the NBA. CP3 has already helped Foye and Mo Will to elevate their games. Give CP3 a stable of young and improving bigs, and a combination of familiar players and tremendously potentially great players at the wings-- that's a pretty potent mix that could develop while CP3 is still in his prime.

The only obvious argument against this I see (from the Jazz side) is that CP3 might already be passed his prime (but, I don't buy that).

The only obvious argument against this I see (from CP3's side) is CP3's agent, who will be working hard to get CP3 the best financial deal he can get-- and, that probably wouldn't be with the Jazz.
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PostSubject: Re: Best free agents of 2013   Fri Jun 07, 2013 8:44 am

This works out perfectly for everyone outside of CP3's agent.....who unfortunately is doing all the hammering out.
The ONLY aspect I see that would make CP not want to come to Utah, would be that he wants to win a championship now. And it probably is in everyone's mind outside of Utahns that other teams and most importantly the Clippers are much closer.
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PostSubject: Re: Best free agents of 2013   Fri Jun 07, 2013 11:51 am

Mutangclan wrote:
This works out perfectly for everyone outside of CP3's agent.....who unfortunately is doing all the hammering out.
The ONLY aspect I see that would make CP not want to come to Utah, would be that he wants to win a championship now. And it probably is in everyone's mind outside of Utahns that other teams and most importantly the Clippers are much closer.

Utah could be much closer to winning a championship than you might think if they bring in CP3, along with another big name free agent and a couple of mid-levels who are attracted to the concept of playing with CP3 (in other words, a couple other guys that he personally recruits to create his own "super team").
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PostSubject: Re: Best free agents of 2013   Fri Jun 07, 2013 12:16 pm

thejazzkickazz wrote:
Mutangclan wrote:
This works out perfectly for everyone outside of CP3's agent.....who unfortunately is doing all the hammering out.
The ONLY aspect I see that would make CP not want to come to Utah, would be that he wants to win a championship now. And it probably is in everyone's mind outside of Utahns that other teams and most importantly the Clippers are much closer.

Utah could be much closer to winning a championship than you might think if they bring in CP3, along with another big name free agent and a couple of mid-levels who are attracted to the concept of playing with CP3 (in other words, a couple other guys that he personally recruits to create his own "super team").

And thats my point, I DO think they'd be alot closer, and would compete for the WCF if CP came here. Problem is, we are Jazz fans and know our team better than outsiders. And the outsiders are who CP is with.

And I dont even think others are needed for any sort of super team. With this team as is, adding CP and then just maybe keeping Foye and adding another shooter wing, I think we have a WCF team.
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PostSubject: Re: Best free agents of 2013   Fri Jun 07, 2013 1:38 pm

Man, Utah is not "just CP3 and change" away from the WCF. I'm pretty sure that is what the Clippers figured and look how that turned out. Chris Paul is awesome but he also isn't going to carry a team by himself into elite category. I suppose we could hope the Jazz jelled to become a Memphis or Pacer-level squad...but lets face it, the Jazz are a good prospect for becoming relevant again based on the youth movement but I need to see how the squad plays next year before I start thinking challenging for the top 4, CP3 or not.
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Best free agents of 2013
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